tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post4726868981542909184..comments2024-03-28T06:54:57.473+02:00Comments on Kotzk Blog: 186) MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE ATTITUDES TOWARDS KABBALAH:Rabbi Gavin Michalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14410541880380752479noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-15577534537957455252018-07-24T05:39:16.536+02:002018-07-24T05:39:16.536+02:00RAMBAM Mishna Torah ,Yesodei HaTorah end of Ch 4.(...RAMBAM Mishna Torah ,Yesodei HaTorah end of Ch 4.(from Sefaria) "<br />וְעִנְיְנֵי אַרְבָּעָה פְּרָקִים אֵלּוּ שֶׁבְּחָמֵשׁ מִצְוֹת הָאֵלּוּ הֵם שֶׁחֲכָמִים הָרִאשׁוֹנִים קוֹרְאִין אוֹתוֹ פַּרְדֵּס כְּמוֹ שֶׁאָמְרוּ אַרְבָּעָה נִכְנְסוּ לַפַּרְדֵּס. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁגְּדוֹלֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל הָיוּ וַחֲכָמִים גְּדוֹלִים הָיוּ לֹא כֻּלָּם הָיָה בָּהֶן כֹּחַ לֵידַע וּלְהַשִּׂיג כָּל הַדְּבָרִים עַל בֻּרְיָן. וַאֲנִי אוֹמֵר שֶׁאֵין רָאוּי לְטַיֵּל בַּפַּרְדֵּס אֶלָּא מִי שֶׁנִּתְמַלֵּא כְּרֵסוֹ לֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר. וְלֶחֶם וּבָשָׂר הוּא לֵידַע הָאָסוּר וְהַמֻּתָּר וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶם מִשְּׁאָר הַמִּצְוֹת. וְאַף עַל פִּי שֶׁדְּבָרִים אֵלּוּ דָּבָר קָטָן קָרְאוּ אוֹתָן חֲכָמִים שֶׁהֲרֵי אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים דָּבָר גָּדוֹל מַעֲשֵׂה מֶרְכָּבָה וְדָבָר קָטָן הֲוָיוֹת דְּאַבַּיֵּי וְרָבָא. אַף עַל פִּי כֵן רְאוּיִין הֵן לְהַקְדִּימָן. שֶׁהֵן מְיַשְּׁבִין דַּעְתּוֹ שֶׁל אָדָם תְּחִלָּה. וְעוֹד שֶׁהֵם הַטּוֹבָה הַגְּדוֹלָה שֶׁהִשְׁפִּיעַ הַקָּדוֹשׁ בָּרוּךְ הוּא לְיִשּׁוּב הָעוֹלָם הַזֶּה כְּדֵי לִנְחל חַיֵּי הָעוֹלָם הַבָּא. וְאֶפְשָׁר שֶׁיְּדָעֵם הַכּל קָטָן וְגָדוֹל אִישׁ וְאִשָּׁה בַּעַל לֵב רָחָב וּבַעַל לֵב קָצָר: <br />...And I say that it is not worthwhile delving into the secrets of the "orchard" until one has filled up on "bread and meat" - meaning to know that which is prohibited and permitted and the like regarding the rest of the Mitzvot. And although these are called "the less important things" by our Rabbis as they said "The vision of the chariot is of great importance and the debates of Abayeh and Rava are less important" still it is more appropriate to learn them first, for they settle the mind of a person first. And these "small things" are the overflowing goodness that Hashem gave us to settle this world in order to inherit the next world. And anyone can know them, child and adult, man and woman, one who possesses a broad intellect and one who possesses a narrow intellect."<br />It's important to also notice that the Rambam mentions delving which is like a private journey.Mendy Rosinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00355457210093817430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-22487778191056405592018-07-23T16:26:06.972+02:002018-07-23T16:26:06.972+02:00Is it not true that even those who advocated teach...Is it not true that even those who advocated teaching Kabbalah to the "masses" also insisted that one must be fully conversant with Nigleh before going on to Nistar? That one cannot understand the "deeper" levels of Torah before understanding what is on the "surface"?Yosefhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11450539540961614579noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-65914927413438057902018-07-23T14:26:50.490+02:002018-07-23T14:26:50.490+02:00I still think such an interpretation is problemati...I still think such an interpretation is problematic, because Hagiga Ch. 2, M. 1 relates to who and how to study Maase Bereshit and Maase Merkava, which relates to the nature of Hashem as well as other concepts of Nistar. <br /><br />However, I think such a statement makes more sense through the kaleidoscope of most pre-hasidic thought, that Kabbalah is only for certain special individuals and not meant for the masses. Such a statement would be made to try and focus most people away from placing such a strong emphasis on those topics and more on the less Nistar aspects of Judaism (an approach that is different from what most today try to do, but is very much in the tradition of pre-hasidic Judaism). <br /><br />As a side note, R. Bar Hayim is a big advocate for the teachings of RAY"K ztl, and having them accessible (as you noted in an earlier post here). RAY"K's works have a strong Kabbalistic approach (although from the Ramchal school of though and in language that on its face is not obviously Kabbalistic), so it is another reason why his statement is perplexing.EAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04131095541228866419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-84866978998608352492018-07-23T13:03:13.397+02:002018-07-23T13:03:13.397+02:00Thank you EA for your considered and thought provo...Thank you EA for your considered and thought provoking comments.<br /><br />[I do not want to 'side' with any of the views, as my intention was simply to present them for purposes of edification. <br /><br />But, in fairness, I believe that R. Bar-Hayim was sharing his interpretation of the Mishah and not necessarily speaking for himself (although it is abundantly evident what his his view is)]. Kotzk Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249905502266813412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-27213620721550058872018-07-23T09:12:37.704+02:002018-07-23T09:12:37.704+02:00Can the quote from RC"V be taken to mean that...Can the quote from RC"V be taken to mean that everyone should learn Nistar? It is told that even RC"V had all of his teachings that he received from the ARI buried with him and they were only eventually revealed by his students that exhumed them after his death (aside from the teachings that were passed down and received by his talmidim that heard it from him orally, such as his son, R. Shmuel Vital). It could also be said that, while this statement was made, it might only be meant to apply to those who are capable of learning Nistar and choose not to do so, otherwise why wouldn't he publish his works to the masses to bring forth the Meshiach sooner?<br /><br />The position of Chabad is an interesting one and even amongst the Talmidei HaMaggid there was a Machlokes about teaching the masses Kabbalah. The biggest argument in this matter is between the Alter Rebbe of Chabad and Avraham Kalisker, where the former was adamant about teaching it to the masses and the latter was not.<br /><br />I think R. Bar Hayim can be a little extreme in his position on most matters, and his approach is definitely not considered "mainstream" in the least of manners. (I don't want that to come off as disrespectful, I enjoy R. Bar Hayim's discussions of matters, even if I don't always find myself agreeing with his approach) <br /><br />Even in Chazal we see that they talk about learning Nistar and the manner in which it needs to be approached and by who (see Hagiga, perek Ein Dorshin in the Bavli). We also see that Sefer Yetzirah was learned by Chazal as well as Geonim, Rishonim and Acharonim, as well as sefer Ha Bahir. So I think R. Bar Hayim's statement should be seen in the same manner as RC"V's statement, from the opposite direction, that the learning of Nistar is for those who are capable and should, but it is not for everybody.EAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04131095541228866419noreply@blogger.com