tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post7876606371144850723..comments2024-03-28T06:54:57.473+02:00Comments on Kotzk Blog: 265) CONVERSION THROUGH THE AGES:Rabbi Gavin Michalhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14410541880380752479noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-89685069196052698702022-06-20T00:17:18.200+02:002022-06-20T00:17:18.200+02:00There was no "swich" from paternal to ma...There was no "swich" from paternal to maternal descent. The belonging to the nation (Jewishness) is determined by the mother, functions within the nation are determined by paternal descent. And it all started at Sinai. Elishevahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11003525656157815315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-71659402789471799262020-03-03T21:26:54.823+02:002020-03-03T21:26:54.823+02:00You also said: "In every single instance you ...You also said: "In every single instance you may see the father being the central player, the Chazal consistently explained what the real story was."<br /><br />Now you say: "Almost the entire Gamut of Rishonim and Achronim hold..."<br /><br />How did 'every single' become 'almost'?Kotzk Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249905502266813412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-31703061897232642472020-03-03T20:08:23.978+02:002020-03-03T20:08:23.978+02:00You wrote: "This entire idea that we changed ...You wrote: "This entire idea that we changed from patrilineal descent to matrilineal descent, is an idea made up by people who don't believe in Torah She'Ba'al Peh."<br /><br />I showed you it existed in opinions in the Gemara and a Ramban. Are you suggesting they did not believe in Torah she'be'al peh?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Kotzk Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249905502266813412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-3931400513187282602020-03-03T15:23:27.517+02:002020-03-03T15:23:27.517+02:00BH
Almost the entire Gamut of Rishonim and Achron...BH<br /><br />Almost the entire Gamut of Rishonim and Achronim hold that we started following matrilineal descent from Matan Torah, when we became a nation. Some hold it goes earlier to the Rambam. No one holds that it started hundreds of years later in the days of Ezra unless he does not believe in Torah She'ba'al Peh.nochum shmaryohu zajachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16329003767166412682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-19697995124732196422020-02-27T10:12:40.882+02:002020-02-27T10:12:40.882+02:00The matter of patrilineal and matrilineal descent ...The matter of patrilineal and matrilineal descent has, unfortunately, become clouded within contemporary religious politics and is always used as an ideological football. We need not, however, allow this to get in the way of respectable scholarly debate.<br /><br />The leading German posek and Rosh Yeshiva, R. Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg famously asked: "Why is a child as his mother? -The answer is not quite clear."<br /><br />Ramban holds that matrilineal descent began as far back as Avraham. (Commentary on Vayikra 24:10)<br /><br />Thus Eisav may have been considered a Jew (Kiddushin 18a).<br /><br />Yet Ramban also mentions the French rabbis who held that the switch from patrilineal to matrilineal descent happened later, at Har Sinai.<br /><br />This was based on the Sifra which says that the 'son of an Israelite woman' converted - suggesting that anyone born before Mattan Torah who was not Jewish by patrilineal descent, had to convert.<br /><br />According to this Torah she'beal'peh a switch did take place between patrilineal and matrilineal descent (although, of course much earlier than Ezra or R. Shimon bar Yochai.)Kotzk Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249905502266813412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-56670692109749603022020-02-26T23:31:12.429+02:002020-02-26T23:31:12.429+02:00BH
This entire idea that we changed from patrilin...BH<br /><br />This entire idea that we changed from patrilineal descent to matrilineal descent, is an idea made up by people who don't believe in Torah She'Ba'al Peh. In every single instance you may see the father being the central player, the Chazal consistently explained what the real story was. <br /><br />In other words the ideas in this point, reject Chazal and Torah She'Ba'al Peh. In other words beyond the pale for any orthodox Jew.nochum shmaryohu zajachttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16329003767166412682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-90552170031123247132020-02-24T08:52:32.471+02:002020-02-24T08:52:32.471+02:00See footnote 25 where another source from Rut Rabb...See footnote 25 where another source from Rut Rabbah is referenced as well. <br /><br />By law was meant Halacha as in Shulchan Aruch (not Gemara or Medrash): This is what Shulchan Aruch says: <br /><br />"When the convert comes to convert, the court says to him: What prompted you to come and convert? Don’t you know that the Jews today are pushed, oppressed, (hopeless and oppressed from, “Why are your stalwarts swept away”[Jeremiah 46:15]? ) insane and troubles are constantly finding them? If the prospective convert says, “I know, and I am not worthy to join them,” they accept him immediately. They then inform him of the central tenants of the faith, which are the unity of God, and the prohibition against idolatry, and we discuss these concepts at length. He is then informed about a few of the less stringent commandments and a few of the more serious commandments. He is then advised about some of the punishments (for transgressing) the mitzvot. He is told, “Before you arrived at this point, if you ate forbidden fats you would not be punished by spiritual excommunication. If you desecrated Shabbat, you would not be stoned, but now if you eat forbidden fats, you will be excommunicated, and if you desecrate Shabbat, you will be stoned." Do not expound on this at too great a length, and we do not examine him too closely. Just as you inform him about the punishments (for the transgressing) of the commandments, so too should you inform him of the rewards for (following) the mitzvot, and that by doing the mitzvot he will merit life in the world to come, and that there is no such thing as a complete saint except for one who has wisdom and that does these commandments and understands them." Yoreh Deah 268:2.<br /><br />According to this the convert is questioned not rejected.<br /><br />(This does not exclude the fact that there may be other Halachik sources that call for rejection.)Kotzk Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14249905502266813412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5576585332526677688.post-72400501240057356162020-02-24T02:35:13.737+02:002020-02-24T02:35:13.737+02:00"Zohar makes the interesting point that the c..."Zohar makes the interesting point that the common practice of initially rejecting the convert, has no basis in classical Jewish law."<br /><br />Doesn't this count as classical Jewish law?<br /><br />תנו רבנן גר שבא להתגייר בזמן הזה אומרים לו מה ראית שבאת להתגייר אי אתה יודע שישראל בזמן הזה דוויים דחופים סחופים ומטורפין ויסורין באין עליהם<br /><br />(Yevamot 47a)AWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01375857624833229195noreply@blogger.com